Episode 50

Mario: Friends and enemies, lovers and haters, welcome to Sends and Sufferers podcast. I am your host, Mario Stanley. If you're enjoying Sends and Sufferers podcasts, please like follow and subscribe on all our social media platforms and on whatever platform that you're listening to. If you can take a moment to leave a comment that does us a lot of good, if you absolutely cannot get enough of Sends and Sufferers podcasts, then check us out on Patreon for as little as $5 a month, which is like grabbing a taco with your boy and just hanging out.

Mario: You get to hear upcoming episodes, talk to the community, learn what we have coming out, and most importantly, get plugged [00:04:00] in to what I've got going on. I would love to see you on there, and once again, thank you for listening to Sends and Suffers podcasts. I am your host, Mario Stanley. Today's episode is a continuation of my conversation with Caleb, one of the photographers at the World Cup this past summer.

Mario: I hope you guys enjoy this episode. It brings me a lot of joy and makes me cringe remembering what I saw. I hope you enjoy today's episode with Caleb. . Uh, yeah. Okay. So, Caleb, broken leg. Yes. Sharp meat. Titanium

Caleb: rods. Yes. So I have a titanium rod, uh, that is the length of my lower leg from my knee to my foot.

Caleb: Mm-hmm. . Um, it's actually somebody who has more medical experience than I will, uh, will laugh at this, but I did not know that when they put a nail. in your leg. It doesn't mean that they put it beside [00:05:00] your bone. It means that they core drill through your bone and put it inside of your bone. So they had to surgically make the incision in my knee and then drill down all the way through.

Caleb: And I apologize, this is getting very graphic, but it basically connects the interior parts of my tibia. And then I have four screws, uh, two on each end of the bone that holds my, uh, tibia together. And then they surrounded the break with bone cement. But then my bone cement, bone cement. It is an adhesive that is of similar structural integrity to your bone, uh, and it essentially surrounds the break until your body can reform the bone.

Caleb: Okay. Yeah, we're getting into the science fiction portion of this podcast, .

Mario: Yeah. I didn't know that was a thing. I know

Caleb: bone cement was a thing. Yeah, that's a real thing. It's wild.

Mario: I'm gonna look for this

Caleb: by [00:06:00] local hardware store. Yes. Um, so that's the story of my tibia. My fibula was very, very broken in, shattered into multiple pieces.

Caleb: I should probably, before I continue, uh, tell, I mean, it's a podcast. It's not like

Mario: people can see

Caleb: it. Yeah. Um, I should probably, uh, tell a story of how I broke it. Yeah. I was, I was wondering instead of unpacking

Mario: the break itself, I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm sure our doctoral, our cus uh, what is it, our doctoral listeners mm-hmm.

Mario: are like really

Caleb: enjoying this. I can get, I, I did get very, very, we talked. Worm worm holes earlier. I researched an inordinate amount about the type of break that I had, and I discovered way too many graphic YouTube videos of surgeries. It was wild. Anyway, backing up, uh, chronologically nine months ago I was bouldering at a little place called Stone Fort, uh, in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

Caleb: Yep. Yep. [00:07:00] Uh, and there is a Highball Boulder problem there called Storming the Castle. I've heard of this. It is a highball V1 in the guidebook, T B D, whether it's actually v1 um, . But I was there, uh, bouldering with a friend, and we ran into some other guys who were there and they were like, oh, we're gonna go do Storm in the Castle.

Caleb: I was like, oh, cool. I've never done that one before. I'll go check it out with you. So one of the guys just absolutely cruised it, made it look chill. And I was like, oh, that looks fine. I'll also do this high ball v1. So I jumped on it, uh, got through and it's one of those boulders that like fools you at first it's like very, it's pretty chill at the beginning, but it progressively gets harder towards the top.

Caleb: And then the crux move is the top move. Um, so it eased me into it. It wooed me in and I was like, oh yeah, I can do this. I can do this high ball. [00:08:00] And I get to the top and I'm like, Hmm, this feels a little spicy. And I made a more dynamic move than I probably should have, and my right foot slipped, so I fell 20.

Caleb: And my left foot hit the pad, but my right foot did not. It landed in between the pad and the wall, and it was just enough, uh, height and just the right angle that I had an open compound tib fib fracture. I made eye contact with my bone and said, oh, hi. Hi. That's not right, . And then, because I'm a psycho, I pulled out my phone and took a picture of it.

Caleb: do you still have it? I do still have the photo, yes. Oh, I gotta see this. It's pretty grody. Um, I'll pull it out as I continue to tell the story, but the, before I saw what had happened, um, the first thing that I saw was my friend Jacob, and his face was just pure. [00:09:00] shock and fear and, and that was my first cue of like, oh, something's wrong.

Caleb: And then I looked down, it's saw my leg. The bone was not

Mario: your first cue that something went wrong. No, your

Caleb: friend's face was something like, ha, that happens. People who have gone through significant trauma will know and understand, like, you're in shock. You just don't know. It doesn't compute. Your body needs time to comprehend that something has gone horribly wrong.

Caleb: I mean, I, I get.

Mario: But the bone out of the

Caleb: body Yes. Wasn't enough. No, it was not enough. Um, so luckily one of the guys that we had been climbing with had his, uh, wooer, his wilderness first responder certification. So while Jacob went to call the paramedics, uh, this guy, this rando that I had just met that day, literally held my foot and my leg together until the paramedics arrived.

Caleb: Yeah. Yeah. I

Mario: was like, you're, you're my hero. Get

Caleb: your wolfer. I've had, I, I need to get your, [00:10:00] get your woofer. I've,

Mario: everyone, I need to redo mine. But it's probably the one, I will say this, your Wolfer is the one course that you can take in your life where you'll be like, blah, blah, blah. But when you go through it, you're like, blah, blah, blah.

Mario: But when that one moment happens mm-hmm. , whether it's a car crash, Which is more likely someone getting hit a pedestrian, breaking their leg or something. Another, but yeah. Yeah. Uh, I was about to ask, like, did you guys have enough, not enough pads or was it this No, it was

Caleb: just like, it was just a sitch. We had plenty of pads.

Caleb: We had had plenty of pads. My, my friends were actively spotting. Um, this is a slab problem. Oh yeah. So, okay, because I fell at the top, uh, what I should have done was kick out so that I landed squarely in the pads, but because I fell straight down, I kind of cheese graded down. And that's why I landed in [00:11:00] between the pad and the wall.

Caleb: Here's the photo. Oh, lemme see. Zoom in. Zoom in on that.

Mario: No, I'm not zooming in . Oh God. I'm zooming in . You got, oh dude, this thing looks like

Caleb: LEM and young. Yeah, bro. You gotta see the chunks. ,

Mario: bro. I see your freaking man meet and we're And this is still then? Yes. This is PG

Caleb: bro. Yeah. So needless to say, it was a very significant injury. And so after the paramedics

Mario: arrived, Your phantoms looking like they were in good condition now.

Caleb: Yeah. The freaking paramedics cut them off. Yeah, he took what, what? He took his scissors to my phantoms, and cut them off.

Mario: I was pissed. I, I damn.

Mario: Yeah, I guess you can't really pull the shoe off at that

Caleb: point. No. Yeah, yeah. I was genuinely terrified about that because they, they got there and my shoe was on and it was very tight [00:12:00] and my foot was very loose, very loosely connected to my leg. And he was just like, how am I gonna get this off? And I was like, just go for it.

Caleb: So he cut a portion of it away, but then had to like, slowly, very carefully pull it off. And that was excruciating. But, um, then when they put me into the ambulance, they took me to the closest hospital, which was a mistake because it's a pretty small hospital. So they processed, they processed me in. And uh, once the doctor actually came in, he looked at my leg and was like, sir, I'm so sorry.

Caleb: We can't help you. We don't have the facility to, to deal with a break of this significance. We have to transfer you to the larger hospital in town. So I had to get back into an ambulance, get taken to another hospital, get processed again, and that was a whole experience. Uh, but they took amazing care of me.

Caleb: The orthopedic surgeon [00:13:00] was incredible. Dr. Gardner, shout out. You're awesome. Thank you so much for putting me back together. Um, so I was in the hospital for about a week. Um, but my favorite part of this story is about a month after I got out of the hospital. I was at a climbing event in Chattanooga at the w Hatchie Boulders and, uh, this climber friend of mine, Aaron Scott, who works in the orthopedic unit at the hospital where I was at, he comes up to me and he's like, Caleb, oh my gosh, it's so good to see you.

Caleb: Uh, can I take a look at your leg for you? How are you feeling? Basically doing like a free checkup for me. Okay. And

Caleb: he takes a look at my leg and we're just chatting. He's like, Caleb, it's great to hear that you're healing. We talk about you at the hospital. I was like, what the fuck do you meet? He's like, you're a case study at Erlinger at the hospital.

Caleb: I was like, what the fuck do you meet? He said that if my bone had exited my leg centimeters to the left, [00:14:00] it would've severed a crucial nerve and artery, and they would've had to amputate my.

Caleb: You would've been a pirate. I would've been a pirate.

Mario: Right? . Oh my

Caleb: gosh. I do as often as possible throughout my life try to embody as many pirate vibes as possible. This was not a planned part of that theme, but I would've been a pirate.

Mario: I'm not gonna lie. I think the universe was telling you maybe you were taking it too far per previous to that.

Mario: I hadn't kind of proved the point. Yeah. I mean, listen, you know, live your best life. I

Caleb: have been Jack Sparrow for four Halloween. I could see you making a good Jack Sparrow. Yeah, I could definitely see, and I will be one again. This year our, our biggest fundraiser of the year, the S SEC's biggest fundraiser of the year is called B Y O B, uh, by your own Boulder Field.

Caleb: Oh, it's great. It's, it's, I've rebranded it this year as our unhinged party for good. It's always been that, but it's never had that name. So it's always been spooky themed because it's always around Halloween and it's, [00:15:00] we're the check-in. Uh, the day before Triple Crown event. Okay. The bouldering competition.

Caleb: Um, so it's usually spooky themed. People always dress up. It's, it's, uh, about as close to horseshoe hell without getting your eyes wet. It's ridiculous shenanigans. Um, but this year it's gonna be spooky pirate themed and I'm very excited for that because I have a six foot rubber ducky that I will be the pirate captain of.

Caleb: I'm trying to find a little kiddie pool that I can bring into the event. I'm also potentially trying to find a sponsor for a mechanical shark. Hello brands out there. If you wanna sponsor my mechanical shark, I just say I'd like,

Mario: do they have to provide the mechanical shark or

Caleb: you have to pay for it?

Caleb: I've sourced the mechanical shark. I just have to pay multiple thousands of dollars for it. Is this like a mechanical bull? Yes, it's a mechanical bull, but it's in the shape of a shark. Oh yeah. So instead of a bull, it is a shark.[00:16:00]

Mario: I, I mean, visually I see this in my head, . I mean, I'm not gonna lie, I'm lost a little bit because I'm like, well, what happens if you fall backwards onto the fin? But I guess it's a soft

Caleb: fin. Yeah. They'll

Mario: figure it out when it happens. I'm here

Caleb: for it. Okay. Yeah. Um, anyway, uh, pirate vibes aside, I think one of the most interesting parts about that conversation with Aaron was that I had the initial shock, the, the like picturing in my mind of what my life would have been like if I had lost my foot.

Caleb: And I, I took that moment to like be present with that feeling and, and have that hypothetical moment of like, whoa, I could have lost my foot, but very swiftly. after that initial feeling of, oh fuck, I had this [00:17:00] knowledge and recollection of a good friend of mine, who is he? He owns his own prosthetic practice in Chattanooga.

Caleb: Mm-hmm. Ronnie Dixon. Amazing guy. Um, but he's a amazing, strong climber who lost his leg and I. I thought about him and I thought about man, like he would've taken care of me. I would've gone to him and, and he's a friend. It, it wouldn't have been like a stranger. It would've been someone that is in my climbing community that I could have connected with and said, Hey, like, help me on this journey of, of recovering back to, uh, being able to climb again.

Caleb: And that gave me so much comfort and gave me so much gratitude for my community of climbers because I'm, I'm just so blessed to know people who can help me recover from something as traumatic as that. and ever since my injury I've, I've had to obviously [00:18:00] not climb mm-hmm. , which is a challenge. It's hard to not be able to engage with the sport that I love in the way that I love to do it.

Caleb: Yeah. But I've been very lucky to be able to still be very deeply invested in the climbing community through my work with the s e c I've gotten to be around my climbing community a lot. I've gotten to empower other people to climb. Um, I've been able to facilitate climbing events and I, I really did channel all of that energy that I would've put into climbing this past season.

Caleb: I put all of that into my work and it's, it's really been, A, not a steep learning curve, but a, a expansion of my understanding of what I'm capable of when it comes to my work. Mm-hmm. , because I've really enjoyed seeing what it looks like when I [00:19:00] fully devote myself to creating opportunities for other people to climb.

Mario: I mean, I think that's like the next level of anything though. It's like once you, you get into something so much that you move from the pupil stage to, you know, the provider stage. Hmm. And I think that's one of the reasons why they call it like a provider when the A M G A and all these other certs like you move into the stage where you are now facilitating or providing the opportunity, providing the experience for everybody else around you and your community and you get involved.

Mario: So that makes sense. It's beautiful. I mean, it's, uh, one, I'm happy you have your leg. Psych that you're now in a textbook three. Um, it's cool that you were able to redirect on energy because like a lot of people, you know, you hear of like, there's a term for it. It's like, you know something, I forget what it is, but there's a term for like skiers when they get hurt and they can't go down, they go into the [00:20:00] deep depression.

Mario: You know, I'm not saying it's like weather, depression, uh, or anything like that, but like they, I, I don't know what it is. And someone will say it out there, what it is. Uh, if you do know what it is, leave it in the comments. I would love. Definitely love to know. Um, but um, I think, uh, yeah, it's just nice that know that like you were able to to draw back, pull back and then redirect that because I feel like most people.

Mario: kind of get into this, woe is me status. Mm-hmm. , uh, and then they just are like, just woe is me. I can't do this, I can't do this, I can't do this. And then the, they start to feel like the world is happening to them. Hmm. Instead of the world is just happening around them. Yeah. And understanding that like, I can still affect the world for a greater good around me, even though my situation sucks.

Mario: Yeah. Because like, at that point, I think, you know, and I, I, I honestly am now saying this again, also, it doesn't really surprise me because like you just did, what any climber good climbers should do is just embrace the [00:21:00] suck. Mm-hmm. , you know, it's like in the moment, like, okay, I, you know, it's like the routes do, I can't do this way, I can't go that way.

Mario: So what am I gonna do? Embrace this suck. I'm just gonna aid this thing and just like French free it and just like, get up the wall. . Like, let's, at this point, my ego, my pride, I'm not gonna free climb this thing. Let's just like get it done. , and I think you really kind of redirected that energy, and that's beautiful.

Mario: Um, I'd like to ask you like, how did you get into photography?

Caleb: Because Ooh. Yeah, because that's like, in

Mario: hearing about all your stories and your journeys, it's like, I know that's what you do. Yeah. But like, I don't, we really haven't talked about like, what was the inspiration, what was that? And then, um, what keeps you shooting?

Mario: Because

Caleb: I've met a

Mario: lot of people, I think with the advent of like, you know, obviously this has been a thing forever, but like digital cameras, cameras, like you can get a nice camera now. Mm-hmm. at a reasonable price. And I thi and I almost feel like there's such a surplus of them on the industry and the market that you can get a nice used one, [00:22:00] you know, and get it serviced or whatever.

Mario: But like, you can still get that. And like we were talking about, like even my equipment that I have now, I'm borrowing a friend's camera, but I have more lighting equipment and production equipment than I do actual camera equipment. I rent all my cameras just because. , almost everybody I know has a Sony s a a seven, you know, or everybody I know has, you know, a very nice cannon or, or whatever, you know, and it's like, uh, yeah.

Mario: But like how, I guess yeah. What inspired you to get into

this?

Caleb: Yeah. So, so if I'm hearing you correctly, this is a two part question. How did I get into it and what keeps me doing it? C Cool. So what got me into it? Um, I was a climber before I was a photographer. Uh, So really what got me into it was going on climbing trips and having this very deep desire to capture those moments and capture those [00:23:00] trips and, and be able to come home and tell stories better with visual, uh, representations.

Caleb: Cuz I, I'm a very visual person. Mm-hmm. , like, if, if I'm trying to recount something to someone, I really prefer to have something to show them rather than just tell them about it. Um, so my senior year, senior year of college, um, my friends and I were like, oh, let, let's take a senior trip. We're graduating, uh, let's go to Utah.

Caleb: So we went climbing in, uh, Provo, Utah, uh, as well as Moab. Um, but Provo, yeah. Leading up to that trip. . I was like, this is gonna be a big adventure. Like this is my first time out west. I wanna be able to capture this. Um, I had been inspired by amazing photographers, like, uh, John Glassberg, Jimmy Chin, CRISPR Card.

Caleb: Like these were my favorite [00:24:00] people to follow because they created such beautiful imagery from the places that they went. These beautiful, uh, incredible spaces. So I was like, that's what I wanna be like. I'm not gonna, I'm never gonna be a professional athlete. Like, I enjoy climbing and I enjoy the sport.

Caleb: Mm-hmm. . But I'm a creative, like I really love to story tell in that way. That is something that I feel I can. That be a value add. Um, so for my birthday, my dad got me this like very cheap dinky little point and shoot camera, uh, leading up to this trip. Very kind, very, very generous. I'm so thankful that he did that because that was a huge catalyst for me feeling what it was like to play that role on a trip.

Caleb: Oh. So I was not the like quote, quote trip leader. I was not the logistics guy. I was not the um, uh, whatever.

Mario: Yeah. But your [00:25:00] role was basically

Caleb: the journalist. I was the documentarian. Yeah. I was the one who was like, Hey guys, like, let's make sure we remember this and remember it well. Um. I, I wanted to find ways to capture the little details of the trip, not just the big wide landscapes, but the, the fact that we had loaded down a civic with a roof bike rack and a back bike rack.

Caleb: The fact that we, uh, constantly ate cheese, it's the whole trip. Like that was just a theme of the trip. Like those little details, those storytelling details, uh, were really fun for me. And I enjoyed doing that because it made me feel so much more present in those adventures. It was thinking through like what are the, what are the elements that make this adventure special and unique to us?

Caleb: Not just, uh, another climbing trip, but what are the inside jokes or the stories that we're gonna be able to tell after this trip is [00:26:00] done? So, Experience of going on a climbing trip with people that I loved, people that I was close with, and being able to capture those memories together was really, really special for me.

Caleb: Um, so that was the experiential catalyst for photography. What really kickstarted photography for me was the year after I graduated college, I had the opportunity to live with a friend of mine who was a professional photographer and he mostly did wedding photography. He was very good at it, very talented, and he, uh, one day just said, Hey, like, I've got this shoot this afternoon.

Caleb: what are you doing? Do you want to come hang out and, and shoot with me? And because he knew that I had my like little point and shoot thing, um, I was like, sure, yeah, that sounds fun. And he let me borrow his like high level D S L R mm-hmm. professional piece of equipment. He just let [00:27:00] me borrow it. He put it in my hands and was like, this is how you use it.

Caleb: Like this is how you do aperture and is o and all these like very technical terms that I had no idea at the time. Um, and he really took me under his wing. He mentored me and taught me everything, uh, that I needed to know in order to be a professional photographer. So, uh, huge shout out to Christian Turner for, for being just a good friend and having that love.

Caleb: Yeah. To. Like, like what we were talking about just earlier. Like he had reached that point where he was no longer a consumer. He was a provider. Yeah. He was someone who had such a deep love for his craft that he wanted to share it and bring other people into it. And he did that with me. Um, so that really kickstarted my professional photography.

Caleb: Like everything before was just very personal, very like, oh, like I wanna capture memories. But he opened the door to what it looked like to be [00:28:00] a professional and to provide a service. And that created opportunities for me to do everything from commercial photography, wedding photography, um, event photography, uh, , maternity photography, just all portraiture, graduation photos.

Caleb: I did it all. I said, I said no to nothing. I was like, if it's an opportunity for me to, uh, be a professional, make money, do the photography thing, I'm gonna say yes. Okay, I'll do it. Um, so that has always been, for me, a really great technical skill cuz I, I went to college, I have my marketing degree, but I really didn't feel like I had any tangible skills.

Caleb: Mm-hmm. from my degree. I had a lot of head knowledge and strategic thinking skills, but I didn't feel like I graduated with any technical, tangible skills. Photography was the first one that I was like, This is something that works well with my marketing degree that I can do [00:29:00] and create. Um, and then later on I added to that.

Caleb: I added graphic design. I added videography. Um, but yeah, photography was my gateway drug into like, oh, I can actually create something for people that they can use. And that was really special. And even though I did all of those different types of photography, adventure photography and climbing photography was what kept my sacred stoke flame alive.

Caleb: It was the thing that kept me shooting. Yeah. Um, because you can do work, and I think that's really important to distinguish when it comes to any kind of creative skillset you have. Um, oh, what's the term? Someone, someone broke this down for me. In really beautiful language, once you have, um, Maybe, maybe it was just as simple as saying like, you have your professional work and your personal work.

Caleb: I think this was a, a Ted talk that I listened to. Actually. Professional work is the thing that you do to, [00:30:00] to pay the bills. Yep. Makes, it's, makes, it's something, makes sense that you, you get the job. It is not your own, typically, you're working on a team. Typically, there are a lot of other opinions that are influencing the creative output.

Caleb: And that's good. That is professional work. It is something that you can do with others for a shared goal in mind. Typically personal work is the thing that you do to, uh, keep you excited, keep you passionate, keep you stoked. And, and the, the example that was used, um, in this TED Talk, I believe was musicians.

Caleb: Mm-hmm. , like as a musician, as a professional musician, most of the time you're doing work. It's not your own, whether you're a professional guitar player or someone who's part of a symphony, like you are doing musical work that has been planned or created by someone else, and you [00:31:00] just show up and you do the thing.

Caleb: Personal work is the work that, like you're just jamming. Yeah. You, maybe it's, you go to the park and you bus and, and you perform for people. You do it for fun or you're doing it for yourself. You're, you're creating a melody, you're creating something in your, your own. You're songwriting. Like you have to have a balance of both in order to be a sustainable creative, because if you do just personal work, odds are, it's, it's very rare that you'll ever be successful.

Caleb: There are a few, uh, aficionados who get. . Like they can just do grabbed out. They can just do that. Yeah. And they can make money and that's amazing. But that is so, so, so, so rare. Yeah.

Mario: There are

Caleb: outliers. Yeah. Um, so you can't just do personal work because you, you won't be able to pay the bills. Mm-hmm. more than likely.

Caleb: But you also can't just do professional work [00:32:00] because you burn out, man. You, you have to have something that keeps the sacred stoke flame alive, and you have to have the things in your life that provide for you and, and create sustainable infrastructure for you to have a career, whatever. It's, so for me, climbing an adventure photography is what keeps that sacred stoke flame alive.

Caleb: And, and any commercial photography work that I do is, is made more enjoyable and made more life giving because I still do the things that give me life.

Mario: That makes sense. Have you ever read the book, uh, the Book of Five Rings? No, I have not. , uh, it's, it, it's all about balance. Mm-hmm. . So like, when you talk about this, this is what I hear in balance and I definitely, I know what you mean about professional and personal work.

Mario: It's like I just finished up doing a podcast series, uh, and we're gonna record our actual, our last run tomorrow, cuz [00:33:00] tomorrow's Friday, right? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So Alexa and I are gonna meet and we're gonna record our last, uh, closing of her series on that. And her doing an l lgbtq plus takeover of my podcast has been probably one of the biggest growth experiences of like, just managing someone else but managing my own content.

Mario: it's honestly, it's forced me to step up my own quality and step up my own work. And I've had to learn how to grow and be better at what I'm doing. And then I am getting ready to start editing a friends podcast, uh, to start working on that. And more so just like helping with like composition of how they're gonna put it together and things like that.

Mario: They just reached out to me and, you know, I'm, I'm, you've listened to my podcast. It's pretty much like cut paste, maybe a few things trims here, but for the most part, you know, when the mic's on, that's what you get. Uh, but [00:34:00] I do 100% agree with you because now that I have been, I have the opportunity to work on quote unquote other people's podcasts, I'm more excited to do my own.

Mario: Mm-hmm. And it is this big balance. You know, one thing I wanna double back to though, that I think you said is really unique, and I don't, I don't think I've ever really thought about this is like, but the roles on a trip. , I've always been in e, the E or the operations side of the leader side of it. But then you said it, um, the documentarian and , like, it's interesting, like what do you believe, what are all the possible roles of, oh, I guess what are the most common roles of the trip?

Mario: You have the leader, the person who probably planned it all. You have, I guess, the operations person, but I imagine that would be the leader, but I guess not. Mm-hmm. . It doesn't have to be. You have the documentarian. Like what other roles do you think that they're usually is filled in on a trip? [00:35:00] Cause this concept of like trip roles intrigues me because I don't know.

Mario: Yeah. But like that, I guess that's my question too. My question is, is what do you think are the most common roles. are on these trips.

Caleb: Yeah. I, I don't know that I could say most common. I, I can really, really speak from my personal experience with trips. Um, I can think specifically of, so my friend, uh, I, I went on a trip to Canada a couple years ago up to Banff National Park.

Caleb: Mm-hmm. , um, and I with two friends, Jacob and Cody. Uh, Jacob is our logistics guru. He, he can think of every potential circumstance scenario and prepare for that. Okay. Love that about him. He's a planner. I, I love empowering him into that role and unleashing him into that role. I just, I, I don't question him ever.

Caleb: Okay. When it comes to planning, because I trust him. That makes sense. Um, and he's proven time [00:36:00] and again, because he is very good at it. Um, and, and he's prepared for every logistical c circumstance. Um, Cody is our qualitative experience manager, , I'll just coin that term right now. He's, he's my friend who is all about having a, a quality, uh, unique, uh, experience to remember.

Caleb: He's, he's my friend who is just, he knows so much about coffee. He's the creative director for a marketing firm. He's, uh, he's a great storyteller. He's, he knows a ton about food and about music, and anytime we go on a trip together, he's always the one who's like, guys, like I've done my research. Like this is gonna be, uh, the best experience.

Caleb: We should go to this brewery, and then we should go to experience charcuterie here. And like, anytime we travel, I know that he's going to [00:37:00] find the, the hike with the best view. Mm. Uh, or something like that where I'm like, okay, like, Cody has done his research to know that we can do this activity or go to this place or experience this food or beer.

Caleb: Um, so I'm gonna trust him to take over that, that part of the trip. Um, and then I'm the documentarian. Like I just want to be really, really observant during the trip. I wanna make sure that any, uh, serendipitous thing that happens, that I capture it. Um, I'll never forget, we, we did another trip to Coachee Stronghold in Arizona, and uh, there was this moment, speaking of serendipity, where we had just driven in the night before.

Caleb: It was very late, it was very dark. Uh, so we just like very quickly set up our tent. And I think we forgot to put the, the rain covers on, the flies on. Oh yeah. [00:38:00] Um, and there was like a dust storm that night, , and we woke up the next morning and there was just so much sand in our tents, . And we, it was this perfect storm of we're like tired, groggy, wake up, we're all basically still in our underwear.

Caleb: And Jacob grabbed his tent and just flipped it upside down and is shaking it over his head and he is just standing there in his underwear just doing this. And I took out my camera and I took a photo of him and I was like, that's not anything that will ever be like a hero shot for any particular thing, but for me, that is a precious core memory of my friend looking silly as hell doing this random thing because we forgot to put our rain flies on.

Caleb: Uh,

Mario: yeah, no, I definitely get that. There's our. . It's funny, I I love that you capture those moments that are like, you capture the moments that I think most [00:39:00] people would just forget. Like from what you're telling me, people forget to take the camera out cause they're too busy in the moment. Mm-hmm. . But those are the moments you wanna be able to remember cuz you look at them and you go back from that.

Mario: Your trip remind. Yeah, your trip reminds me of my first trip to Zion with my buddy Cameron and Tucker. And it was, we didn't take as many photos of it, but one thing that I did is like, I pulled out my phone after every climb and I probably wrote like three or four paragraphs of like what the trip was.

Mario: And that's probably, honestly, I think that's like the only bubble I have on my Instagram. , like I don't have like 9 million bubbles and they're curated. Like, this is my, you know, this is my workout bubble, this is that bubble. It's like, mine is like, Nope, this is the one thing I got because, and like I haven't had another trip like that.

Mario: And like that just makes me pull out my phone and want to just talk about it and talk about that moment. Um, but that's cool. I was, I was curious [00:40:00] about that cuz like, I like that concept of like roles on a trip and, you know, I think I always just from owning a guiding company, I'm always thinking about like, logistics always te you know, like logistics.

Mario: This, how do we make this happen? How many, how do we get from here to here? These people, this and that. But that's more the creative side of it. And I think that's more of a much more beautiful side of like what the roles actually are and how they actually function. Mm-hmm. and. I don't know. I don't think that people think about that.

Mario: Maybe, maybe they do. Maybe I'm not. I'm just the one who doesn't think about it at all. But I think that's actually a really beautiful way to like plan a trip and think about a trip instead of just thinking about what you're going to do on the trip. But think about like, how are you going to remember this trip?

Mario: How are you going to like savor this trip? How is it gonna be savory in your mind? Mm. I mean, it's already sweet because you're doing it, but how do you

make

Caleb: it savory? Yeah. I think, [00:41:00] how do I qualify this? I, I have loved going on trips consistently with those guys every year. So we try to do an annual desert trip every year.

Caleb: Okay. Whether it's Red Rock or coachee or something, we, we travel consistently together, which is really such a gift because you learn these things. You learn what people are good at. You learn. What makes them come alive and what makes them thrive. I would never want to put someone in a box on the beginning of a trip, not knowing them.

Caleb: I would never want to go up to someone and be like, Hey, you're the logistics person. This is the role that I have assigned to you. Yeah. I think when you're traveling like that, it's really important to go into it with an open expectation instead of a like finite expectation to say, Hey, like we're going on this trip together.

Caleb: maybe if you're traveling together for the first time, say, Hey, like, these are all the things that need to get done. Let's work [00:42:00] as a team to get them done. Mm-hmm. . And then you start to see organically, like where people start to, uh, gravitate towards mm-hmm. . Um, because I think, and, and this kind of ties back to photography for, for me, because I could have pursued photography full-time, there was a short amount of time where I was just full-time freelance.

Caleb: It was my only thing. I tried to, to make that my, uh, career. And I learned very quickly that that was not for me. Why? Um, I. Thrive when I work on a team. Okay. I, I'm not a very good solo act. I'm not a lone wolf. I get very bored very quickly, very lonely, very quickly. And I just work better when I'm on a team.

Caleb: That makes sense. So I, I learned that specifically about my work trajectory, um, that I, I needed to be part of a larger picture, [00:43:00] and I still wanted to be very intentional about that. I wanted to be very proactive about finding stories that I really cared about and missions that I really cared about. Um, so I've been very lucky to consistently find work in the outdoor industry.

Caleb: Um, but I have very much found that I do my best work when I am filling a role that I love. And when I'm around people who are filling roles that they love, I'm, I feel very lucky. Our team at the s e C is, is. I mean, absolute power team. Meg, our executive director, is just so logistically talented and thinks through, um, all of the, the backend mm-hmm.

Caleb: things very well. We were mentioning this earlier, how, how you, you don't enjoy, uh, the backend logistics. I'm the same way. I hate backend logistics. I can't think that way. I get [00:44:00] very. Frustrated and, um, just lost. Yeah. When, when I have to like dig into that, she thrives there. She, she comes alive there. Um, and then our, uh, stewardship director, Kate Haynes, she's incredible at, uh, rallying volunteers and finding roles for people.

Caleb: And so she's really good at whenever we plan events or plan trail days, she's like, okay, what are the. Tasks that need to be done and the people who can fill those roles. Okay. And then I come in and I'm the sultan of Stoke. I'm the Chief Stoke Officer. I can rally people and be the announcer, the, the mc and keep the energy high.

Caleb: And whether it's on the front end, like marketing and promoting the event, inviting people, rallying people, uh, or during the event when I'm just like getting people hyped up to, to do an activity or buy raffle tickets or, [00:45:00] uh, play a silly game that we've come up with or, or get ready to go climb. Um, one of my , one of my favorite moments I've ever experienced,

Caleb: Jeremy Collins.

Caleb: Mm-hmm. are one of our favorite artists. He's one of the main organizers for 24 hours of Horseshoe hell. And he's always, uh, the en the announcer at the beginning. He like gathers everyone around and has them recite this climber's creed and yeah, he has this persona, Gordo that he like leans into. And, and that was really inspirational to me as a young climber.

Caleb: I was like, this guy is standing up in front of hundreds of people, getting them psyched out of their minds to suffer for 24 hours. That's incredibly powerful and wonderful and beautiful, and I get to experience a small piece of that when I do s e c events, whether it's one of our film nights or one of our outdoor climbing [00:46:00] competitions, or the B Y O B fundraiser that we do every year.

Caleb: Mm-hmm. , I love leaning into that part of the role. So I'm, I'm really thankful for my team because the incredible work that they do on their side of things that they're very good at. We, we talk about this all the time. When, when we're doing our team meetings, the work that we do as individuals empowers our coworkers to do the work that they do.

Caleb: Like I could not do the work that I'm doing telling stories, getting people stoked, getting people to care deeply about our rock climbing resources. If Meg was not doing her behind the scenes wizardry of access, uh, advocacy, or if Kate was not doing her stewardship work of planning trail days and, and taking care of the fixed hardware needs at our climbing areas or building trails, um, it feels like such a gift to be on such a team of people.

Caleb: Mm-hmm. , who [00:47:00] are working together towards the same mission, but doing so in their unique, powerful, uh, ways. and skills.

Mario: So how did this transition into shooting for U S A climbing and now for you shooting for the very first time ever in history that, that the I F S C is hosting Youth Worlds in the United States here in Dallas, Texas.

Mario: Like how did, like, it was, I guess we, what was the transition for you to like get this job? Or was it just kind of a referral or someone was like, yo, Caleb is the dopest mother motherfucker on the planet, .

Caleb: It was a little bit of all of that. So I, I refer to myself as a serial opportunist. . I just like, I have a thought and I have a plan and I have an idea of what my future is going to be, but I never really like commit to that or like set in stone like, this is what I'm gonna do with my life.

Caleb: No, I

Mario: mean, I don't think you're supposed to, I think [00:48:00] life is like an ocean. It's like, yeah, it's like life is like an ocean and the winds like, you kind of like. , like you're trying to get to another place, you're trying to get to a land that you know exists, but at the end of the day, you kind of go, you have to go the way the wind blows and the ocean goes.

Mario: Mm-hmm. , you'll get there. Yeah. But you, you don't get to go in a straight

Caleb: line. Yeah. So for me, that meandering ocean faring line, uh, was I started working with the S e c, but I still wanted to keep like a small portion of my personal photography business alive. So I do the occasional freelance job. I shoot the occasional wedding for a friend.

Caleb: Um, so I always just have that work kind of in the background. And, uh, last year, A good f my old boss from the climbing gym that I used to work at, um, he was the marketing director. I was the marketing manager. Um, he is the new [00:49:00] marketing director for USA Climbing. Mm-hmm. So when he stepped into that role, he, he hit me up and he was like, Hey Caleb, like you're an amazing photographer.

Caleb: I love working with you. You're a friend. I would love to, uh, book you to shoot the occasional u s a climbing event. Is that something you'd even be interested in doing? And I said, because I'm a serial opportunist. Yes, of course. I would love that. That sounds amazing. So, uh, the first gig that I ever did for U s a climbing was a couple months ago.

Caleb: I shot, um, uh, collegiate nationals in Philadelphia. Mm-hmm. , and it was such a great experience. I loved working with the U s A climbing team. I loved the high action, fast-paced energy of shooting a comp, a multi-day comp at that level. Um, it's, it's a lot. It's, it's long days go, you're on the go and [00:50:00] moving at the speed that these competitions do.

Caleb: You have to be so attentive and so observant and so on your game. For 12 hours a day for multiple days in a row. But I thrive in that chaos. I love that chaotic energy and the space that I can fill in that energy because I get to create so much. I'm taking thousands of photos and editing so quickly and turning them around so quickly.

Caleb: But I get to see how happy that makes these climbers, who mm-hmm. , a lot of them who don't get past qualifiers or get past semis. They get to walk away from this comp with, with not much, but they get that photo. Mm-hmm. , they get to say like, oh, this was, this was my experience. I was there. Um, and that's really special and I really am honored that I get to, to be there for climbers in that way.

Caleb: So now, uh, th this was, this is basically my second gig through U [00:51:00] S A C. Ben hit me up and was like, Hey, would you like to photograph Youth Worlds? And I was like, Ben, of course Dove. I would absolutely love to do that.

Mario: I think I'm just gonna go ahead and say this round your second event Yeah. For U S A C is shooting you fors.

Mario: Talk about hitting it out of the park. I'm, I'm doing

Caleb: my dang

Mario: best. Yeah. I, I think you're doing all right. Play boy. Yeah. I think you're doing real good. Yeah. I like something you just said really kind of resonated with me, you know, like thriving in chaos. Mm-hmm. And I really do firmly believe, like, that's like a mantra that I think a lot of people should be able to take in, especially climbers.

Mario: Like if you can learn how to thrive in chaos, if you can learn how to manage chaos, if you can learn how to succeed in chaos, the world turns into a playground. Yeah. The world turns into anything, like the world just turns into a sheer opportunity. Mm-hmm. , like everything is opportunity. Cuz most people, what we perceive to be as chaos is another person's manageable and [00:52:00] another person's manageable.

Mario: And another person's chaos is that, that it's like the old saying, one man's trash is another man's treasure. Mm-hmm. , you know? And, um, I think that's a really, really, really powerful statement because as climbers, you know, that is something that theoretically speaking, we should be able to do. Like, you know, like when, like when the get gets getting, and we all know that moment, and whether it's like mountain biking, climbing, hiking, trail running, ultramarathon, running, climbing, whatever, like we all know that moment where it's like this is getting a little outta hand.

Mario: This is getting a little on the wild side. Like I feel like I'm truly on the sharp end, but if you can always bring that back to, um, And I'm not saying bring it back to like calm it down or bring it back to reality because that's not how it works. Like, like I don't wanna say that because saying it's come back to [00:53:00] reality is just the stupidest thing you can ever say in the world because you're literally on the edge of your own reality pushing yourself there.

Mario: I think the thing is, is if you can manage that situation, that, especially as us as athletes, we're managing the chaos in our own head. Mm-hmm. . And so then when that chaos. is external. Mm-hmm. . And we're just like, oh, okay. Rolling through it. And this I thing, I think, and I, this is personally what I think a lot of people, why a lot of people like climbing is people are like, I'm working on this crazy hard problem.

Mario: I'm doing this thing. It just seems impossible, blah, blah, blah. I'm about that. And then they go to work and their boss or their life is like, ra. And they're like, you have no idea what I was doing earlier today. . You have no idea what I'm gonna thrash myself and destroy myself and give myself so much an mental anguish.

Mario: And then I'm gonna dream about this boulder. I'm gonna dream about this route. Mm. And it's gonna cause me so much angry anger. And then I'm gonna wake up at 4:00 AM in the morning and be like, that's the beta. Like the rest of it is small fries. Mm-hmm. . And I don't know, I think that's a [00:54:00] skillset, but climbers have an it, like really have, I really don't think that we harness enough.

Mario: Nikki Smith really said this really well recently in a podcast with me and Alexa. It's like, And actually another person who said it is, um, oh my God, her name is escaping me. Oh my gosh. Hold on. Gimme two seconds. Five, four.

Caleb: It'll come to me in a minute. Yeah, we'll keep talking and you'll remember in like

Mario: five minutes. I just, she's a tattoo artist. Fully Tattoo Marina? Yes. Oh, I love Marina Marina's great. Yeah. Marina, if you're listening to this, Hey girl, big fan. We love you. No, always forever. Um, but Matt Marina and I talked about this in a podcast like a while back.

Mario: Like we as climbers, and I think all of us are saying this, but I just don't think it's really being said or done. And maybe it's just us who have been in a while, but we inherently have the skills, like, like we literally seek [00:55:00] out doing the hardest. We, we are literally trying to make the hardest climb, the hardest thing possible that we're trying to do.

Mario: We're trying to do it in the easiest way possible. In the most efficient way possible, in a way that allows us to have the most amount of gas in the tank, emotionally, spiritually, and physically. Hmm. And maybe there's some random fourth, you know, shocker out there that I don't know about, but we're trying to have that much extra fuel in.

Mario: And I think if we, as just people getting back to this, this long rant is boiling down to this. It's like, I love how you say like, like just managing chaos, because I think that's what allows us to succeed as climbers. And I think that's what allows us to succeed and be so tenacious with projects. You know, you're like, you're a serial opportunist.

Mario: You also are doing this as the S sac C uh, s s c. You know what I'm saying? A lot of [00:56:00] letters. Yeah. A lot of letters are going on here. Um, and then, yeah, cause I'm thinking of like U S A C I, F S C S C and like aac, there's a lot, there's too many c Can we take the sea out of a situation here? ? Do we seas? Yeah.

Mario: I mean, I, we all know it's climbing. Can we just say it's like rad or something? Change a letter or tell that one out. We're going, we're going sideways here. But, um, I do think that's a unique, I think that's a unique skill that exists within the adventure sport world because like, I don't know. I just now really thinking about it like you have to manage the chaos of the chaos gets

Caleb: you and or you least have, have to be capable of managing the chaos when the time horizons.

Caleb: Can I get super nerdy? Hit me for a second. Hit me with the one time. Uh, so one of my favorite book series is the, uh, dune series by Frank Herbert. Yes. Classic. And, uh, in that book series, there is this, uh, [00:57:00] mantra known as the litany against fear. Ooh. And it's typically recited in high stress situations. Um, but it goes like this.

Caleb: I will not fear, no, sorry. I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer. I will face my fear and I will permit it to pass through me. Fear is the little death that brings total oblation. and when the storm has passed, I will turn my inner eye to see that the fear is gone and only I will remain, actually have that tattooed on my body.

Caleb: Only I will remain. Oh yeah. But that, so, so I started reading that book series as a young kid. I read it with my dad. And that litany against fear was a very formative, early concept of that chaos management for me. Mm-hmm. , because I was able to use that as a framework for high stress situations. Okay. [00:58:00] Like anything, whether it was climbing or tough relationship or stress with school or work, I would be able to like, Kind of conceptualize with this like arbitrarily silly science fiction thing, but really, truly meaningful to me in a very deep way.

Caleb: This idea of fear is a storm. Mm-hmm. that I have the opportunity to weather, and if I can weather that storm and passed through that chaos and get to the other side, I will be the stronger for it. I will have been forged stronger by that experience, whatever it may be. And I think that has been a, a truly, truly a guiding light for me in my life to say, okay, I'm receiving this chaotic energy, whatever it may be, whatever.

Caleb: Mm-hmm. , it may manifest as I'm going to not quarantine it. Mm-hmm. in my mind. I'm not [00:59:00] going to ignore it. I'm not going to react strongly to whatever this chaos is. I'm going to create a space for it. I'm going to hold it. Process it and move through it, and whatever that journey looks like, whatever that moving through looks like, whether it's being emotionally raw for a little while or being vulnerable with someone, I'm going to move through that chaos to get to the other side and say, okay, I experienced that thing, whatever it was, here's my, uh, personal experience of what I had.

Caleb: Mm-hmm. , how do I take that energy? Manifest it into something next, what is the next step from that chaotic energy? And I think it's been cool to experience a pretty, uh, broad range of chaos in my life. , whether it's a broken leg Yeah. Or shooting a comp or, yeah. Uh, experiencing tumultuous relationships. I, I or a [01:00:00] 2020 pandemic, I don't know.

Caleb: Like chaos comes in many forms and we have to, uh, recognize that as humans, we are resilient creatures. I think resilience has been something that I've been meditating on recently to say that, or, or to own that I have resilience. Yeah. That I can survive things. It's pretty special to be able to say like, I am capable of receiving whatever the world gives me and mm-hmm.

Caleb: making it through that and coming out on the other side. Hopefully a better person. That's

Mario: beautiful. That's very beautiful. I'm not gonna lie though, low key can go back in his box for a little bit . Cause it's been a little wild . So he

Caleb: last for Screw that motherfucker. Yeah,

Mario: yeah, yeah. No, um, you know, that's, it's, yeah, no, that is a very beautiful thing and I think, and I, I like how you put that and [01:01:00] you wrap that up in a nice, beautiful package.

Mario: One person that you've mentioned a lot in this podcast, maybe it's just, maybe not a lot, but at least two or three times you've mentioned your dad and your parents. Hmm. Um, like what role have they really played? I mean, obviously bringing you into this world. Yeah. You know, like that's a given, doing the deed

Mario: But like, you know, you, you know, you mentioned shout

Caleb: out to mom and death or bringing two together cause I

Mario: dunno, hopping on the good foot, doing the bad thing. Um, but yeah, no, you've mentioned them and it's always kind of been in correlation to.

Mario: I don't remember the ex, like the exact phrases that you're saying. And obviously we can go back and listen to this later, but essentially it boils down to this, uh, one of my good friend Taylor, who is about to be a proud mama if she isn't already a mama right now, cuz that thing's hot in the oven ready to come out.

Mario: You know, she said something to me in a very, um, tumultuous time in my life. You know, [01:02:00] Mario, you can't go around over and under. It's only through. And I feel like anytime you talked about anything monumental in your life, you've brought up your parents and so like how have they played like a role in like your development and all of this and what you're doing?

Mario: I'm, I'm, I'm assuming they're very proud of you. I would be, I'd be like, this is my boy. You see this? He's doing good and I made this, but um, like, yeah, what, what are they to you?

Caleb: Ooh, we're about to get vulnerable. Um, I mean, we don't have to

Mario: boo boo. This is your show as much as is mine.

Caleb: Let's do it. Um, so

Mario: diving deep into the ribbon now. ,

Caleb: hallelu, um, I'll preface with this. I love my parents deeply. They're very special people in my life, and I wouldn't be who I am today without them, [01:03:00] obviously. Um, growing up, all I really had was my parents and my brother, because we lived out in the middle of nowhere. So older, younger, younger brother.

Caleb: Okay. Um, so I'm, I grew up the oldest of two. Um, And yeah, we were all just very close. Uh, we spent a lot of time together. We did a lot of things together. We went on trips together. We spent a lot of time in the North Carolina mountains. Mm-hmm. , loved going there, uh, every summer. Um, went to El Salvador quite a lot cuz that's where my mom is from.

Caleb: Okay. So a lot of Christmases in the tropics, which was always super fun. Not, no one's complaining about that. Yeah. Nobody's complaining about that. Uh, and I'm very proud of my Latino heritage as well as my American family. Um, but I always took great pride in the fact that I was of diverse heritage.

Caleb: Mm-hmm. . Um, so I would say [01:04:00] the role that my parents have in my life was very influential in my formative years as an adult. Not so much. . So they instilled a lot of love and a lot of care and a lot of, um, depth in me growing up, which I will forever be grateful for. Because I think growing up in a house like that, it was, nothing was ever surface level.

Caleb: Everything was always very like, hot. Let's unpack this. Like let's dive into the depths of what you're feeling. Like let's have a very safe emotional space. Like I, I feel very blessed to have had such loving, caring, nurturing parents, very nurturing. Gosh, my dad is like, that's the first thing, the first way I describe my dad always is like, he was a very nurturing father.

Caleb: Um, unfortunately while I was in [01:05:00] college, my parents separated and that really. Turned our family dynamic upside down, put it into a blender, put that blender inside of a hurricane, put that hurricane inside of a black hole and just like really messed everything up, which I had to mourn. I had to go through a season where I really was unwell because of how my parents separated, how they managed.

Caleb: That was really unhealthy and that was a big catalyst for me. Learning that my parents were humans, which is an important lesson I think, I think is really critical, that in our developmental process as people, we learned that our parents are human. And it's really unfortunate that I learned it in that way, but I went through a season where I really resented my parents and really did not want to be related to them.

Caleb: [01:06:00] And feel very lucky that we have since rebuilt our relationships with each other and have reconciled in many ways. But our relationships are just fundamentally different now. And I think it's unfortunate that as an adult, when I have come into what I would call my thriving years, where I am really finding my identity as a person, I am really getting deep into what is fulfilling in my life.

Caleb: I don't get to share that with them as much. Um, they know, they know that I love my job. Why? Why don't you get

Mario: to share it with them as much? Is it because you don't want to, and I only am I only asked this question because How old were you when your parents separated? I was 21. So I was 23 when my parents separated.

Caleb: Mm-hmm. . . And it's a weird time. It's a weird time for your parents. It

Mario: is. It is . So, okay, so I say I take it back. I was [01:07:00] 23, but my parents had already been separated for like a year to maybe two years. They just never told me, me and my brothers. Oh, wow. Like we had no idea. Wow. And all of a sudden, like, I got a phone call from my brother and he is like, did you know?

Mario: And I'm like, yeah. Like, what are you

Caleb: even talking about? My experience was very similar. Very similar. Yeah. It's wild.

Mario: But isn't it really wild with that? Because like but you, that's, I, I was, the only way I can describe it is I was so bewildered, but then I, I don't know, man. I had so much empathy for my mom and my dad because at the end of the day I was like, you know something, my mom and my dad are my heroes.

Mario: Mm. They're the most superhero people in my entire life. I love them. I cherish them in my mind. They can do no wrong even when they do wrong. , but it was at that moment that I had to realize that they are two separate individuals. Yep. And they are two separate people [01:08:00] with two separate passions. Joys, happiness.

Mario: And it was the first time that, it was the first time that I had had to one look at my parents at two separate individual people, not just my parents. Two had to con take in considerations, the contents and the character and the thing of their own hearts. And three, it was the first time I really, honestly, truly had to ask my question, well, what do they like?

Mario: What does my mother want? What does my father want? Hmm. Because it was always like, I don't know. I think as their, as their children, , you immediately think, oh, I know what they want, but what they, what I think I know what they want is really what I want to give to them because I am their child, because I know them.

Mario: Cuz I have known them for my whole life. And what I want to give them is what they really want, but [01:09:00] I am not them. And it's just like this really, like hard hitting, heavy moment. I remember it took me a couple days to kind of like grab my brain around like, like what? Yeah,

Caleb: it's wild man. Yeah. I Family's weird.

Caleb: Family's a wacky thing. I think it's supposed to be that way. Yeah. I, I have this conversation pretty regularly with friends. That family is, is just a challenging thing. And I've had to process this very deeply over the years that. family looked a certain way for me growing up. And family looks very different now.

Caleb: And is that

Mario: because you're older or do you think the example has

Caleb: changed? I think it's just circumstance. I think seasons, the seasonality of [01:10:00] life is a very real thing. And I think if we try to rebel against that, we'll, we'll put ourselves in a lot of hurt. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And if, if we instead embrace the seasonality of life, we can better glean the value from it.

Caleb: Um, and I say all of that to say, I, I have experienced two very distinct seasons of family. One very like idyllic, wonderful. Growing up. Way one very tumultuous. Uh, Crazy, wacky, hurtful, but also redemptive way. And what that has done for me is created an expectation for my future that there will probably be more different, unique seasons further down the line.

Caleb: So I hope that I'm preparing [01:11:00] myself emotionally, spiritually, my character, so that I can be resilient and weather that change. Because my hope someday is that I have my own family and who knows what challenges I will face or my family will face together in those times. And I don't know, I'm, I can't predict the future.

Caleb: Maybe I'll go through a similar season that my parents did, and I think it's really important for us. To prepare ourselves emotionally for those changes. Not, not hamstring ourselves or, and, and not like, uh oh, what's, what's the, what's the term where you predict something for yourself and then you create that reality?

Caleb: Oh, self-fulfilling prophecy. That's what it is. Self-fulfilling prophecy. Bet. That is what we don't want. Mm-hmm. . What we want is to be prepared for [01:12:00] potential eventualities, but don't set yourself up for failure by just expecting that you're gonna have brokenness. Brokenness is inevitable. We, oh gosh. Have you seen the spoilers?

Caleb: Spoilers are about to happen. Have you seen the movie Everything Everywhere, all at once yet? No. Dude, watch it. Oh my God, it's so good. Okay. Um, so good. In the sense that it poses very deep emotional questions and, and unpacks them in a very unique way, production-wise, plot-wise, questionable. Whether it's gonna be a great movie or not, neither here nor there that's subjective to each person's experience.

Caleb: I really enjoyed the family dynamic of that movie. Okay. Because it is very raw and very real and very emotional, and there's no like really amazing tie it up in a bow resolution to it. [01:13:00] It's very messy and it's very honest and I think it, it poses that question of time and future and adds the element of alternative realities.

Caleb: So you, you get that experience of like, Ooh, what if, what if this happened or this happened that could potentially change how our family dynamic would've been so, Uh, one of the punchlines to the movie is Nothing Matters. And you can take that and you could receive that statement and say, Ooh, nothing matters.

Caleb: Therefore, I'm not going to care about anything. Nothing matters that therefore, I'm going to abandon everything. Abandon morality, abandoned purpose, abandoned life, whatever that may be. Nothing matters, therefore, I do not matter. Or you could say nothing matters. There is freedom to be found there nothing matters.

Caleb: So I will [01:14:00] take advantage of every opportunity. I will seek out new opportunities. If something isn't working for me, nothing matters. Therefore, I can have the freedom to experience different things and not worry about the consequences.

Mario: I think that's beautiful because you, it it's a, it's funny. It's it's perspective.

Mario: It's perspective, it's personality. It's kind of you, your take on it and your life experience. Cuz it's funny when you were giving all these examples of nothing matters. This to me, what if you were to tell me in life, well Mario, nothing matters in life. Okay, well I'm unabashedly, uncontrollably gonna love on you and I'm gonna un unabashedly, uncontrollably going to give all the affection that I want.[01:15:00]

Mario: At the same time, I will also rage the want. You know, because if it doesn't matter, then what do I have to lose?

Caleb: That's it. That's it. What do you have to lose? I

Mario: have, and you know, and yet, and I think the flip side of that is since I have nothing to lose, I have everything to gain. and I don't know. Another thing too, it's funny, have you heard, I, I think it was so beautiful when you were talking about your parents and how that whole experience goes to you.

Mario: Have you heard the sounds of the black hole yet? I have not, no. Oh my God, bro. bro. When you were talking about like how your whole world collapsed. Yeah. Uh, one of my favorite comedians, Tony Baker talks about it. He was like, this is exactly how a black hole should sound eerie. So, hold on. Lemme see if I can boy do this here.

Mario: I don't know if I'm prepared for this. Oh no, dude, it was so weird and eerie. Okay. This is, this is not normal. This is not it. Okay. So I'm gonna go ahead and so I'm gonna play the sound of a black hole, [01:16:00] but I'll actually cut it out and see if I can snag it from the internet and not get yelled at for it.

Mario: But this is the sounds of a black.

Mario: Sounds like the abyss of Hades and hell drawing everyone into it. But it's so, it's like, it's funny when you were talking about that, I literally in the moment you said that, I've listened to this sounds like four or five times. Cause I think it's just so unique. But like a black hole sucks everything into it.

Mario: Nothing escapes it. Everything. Even light [01:17:00] gravity itself is pulled into it. And then when you talk about sadness, hmm.

Mario: Wow, this is heavy. Okay, so, um, I'm just gonna run with this here. When you talk about your whole reality just being broken and changed and the foundation that you've known your whole life, and all of a sudden it's just ripped out from underneath you. That sound to me is a cross between sadness and wailing and a tornado that does not spin things upward, but it spins things inward.

Mario: And it's this sound that like, just lets you know that like this is the end. But the beauty of it is, and I, this is as sill as it is, is it's funny, I was watching this, I can't remember the name of [01:18:00] the TV show on Netflix, but this, um, I think it was like the Sandman or the dreams or whatever it is. And he's fighting Lucifer who's played as a woman.

Mario: And um, you know, it's like I am a black hole. I am death, I am the destroyer. And it's like, what can, what can def defeat a black hole? What can defeat anything? What can defeat the end of time, the end of life? And the only thing is hope.

Mario: I think hope combined with love and compassion. But bottom line, it's hope. And I think, you know, as you know, as two grown men here, just like thinking about our families and things like that, you know, it's like, I think that's what I had to have. I, I know for me that's what I kind of had to have for my own parents.

Mario: Like I had to hope that they were making the right decision for themselves. Cuz regardless of however I felt and regardless of [01:19:00] however I, whatever I thought. It, it doesn't matter. I just have the hope. But I do need to acknowledge how I feel. And that sound was like so synonymous when I heard it. Cause I was like, why does this remind me of so many things?

Mario: And ultimately it reminds me of so many things cuz we are part of the universe. We are just mad. We are stardust. At the end of the day, we are made of the same thing that the stars in the universe and the rest of the galaxy is made out of. The only difference is, is we're are, we're combined a little differently.

Mario: But yeah. Man, when, right when you said that, I just like that sound was playing in my head and I was like, oh my God, why is this here? Why does this seem so serendipitous? And it's like [01:20:00] they

Caleb: match.

Caleb: Yeah, that was harrowing. listening to that I was like, oh my gosh, I'm getting sucked in. I think I've, I've seen that show The Sandman, it's so good. And, and that specific scene is so amazing because you, you get to experience that full story arc of beginning in a challenge and that challenge just escalating and escalating and escalating.

Caleb: And ultimately kind of following that, that hero's journey of down to like despair mm-hmm. and from that despair rising into climax of Hope. And I think what's been cool and, and what I'm so thankful about this season of my life, my girlfriend and I have recently have been chatting pretty often about how who we are [01:21:00] now.

Caleb: It's so special to reflect on what our younger teenage selves hoped for. Oh Lord. And, and think about how we are living that hope and living that dream. Mm-hmm. , like for her, one of her things was she really wanted to have a beautiful home and a beautiful space, and a dog and a cat, and a really like great community in, in our hometown, or in her hometown.

Caleb: She grew up in Chattanooga and she has all of those things. She ha We have a beautiful home. We have a dog named Basil and a cat named Jack. And we have a really great community in Chattanooga. And for me, my, my hope as a, as a young teenager was very much centered around this idea of I didn't have an identity.

Caleb: So my hope as a young kid was I really want to find a passion, and I really want to have a community [01:22:00] that cares deeply about me, that I also care deeply about. And I also want to have long hair and tattoos, . So here I am as a 30 year old, and I have those things, man. Yeah, I have passion. I have two passions really.

Caleb: I have photography and I have climbing. I have these things that fulfill my soul and give me life, and keep that sacred stoke flame alive. And I also have a wonderful community of people that I care deeply about that have taken care of me, uh, in really meaningful ways while I've been injured. Um, I have long hair and I have tattoos.

Caleb: So I think for, for us as a, as a, as a couple, we really have enjoyed the. kind of extrapolating that thought of hope to the next step. So like mm-hmm. , here we are kind of at the middle. We have manifested this feeling of hope and these desires for our future to where we are now. What are we [01:23:00] doing and what are we hoping for, for the future?

Caleb: And who knows, maybe we can manifest it, maybe we can create this reality of continued hope. And one of those things for me is I, I have this vision for my future, uh, that is kind of built around the, the, uh, pre, what's the word? Um, predetermined. Pre-tested? No, not premeditated. Uh, it, one of the critical necessary pieces of this is that I live somewhere for a long period of time.

Caleb: Okay. Um, So for me right now, that's Chattanooga. Like I very intentionally moved to Chattanooga, Tennessee. How long have you been there now? Oh, I moved there in 2017. So math five years. Mm-hmm. , five years. Um, I, I have this vision for [01:24:00] being an established member of a community mm-hmm. , that I know and am known by my community.

Caleb: I understand that. Yeah. I understand that wholeheartedly. And I think the reason I hope for that is because I see very specific people in my community that I love dearly, people that I would consider mentors, people that I would consider like very valuable members of our community. And, and I think to myself, Ooh, I hope that someday I can be of similar value.

Caleb: I want to be someone in my climbing community, hopefully, specifically in Chattanooga that. Has consistently added value in a way that when I look back on 30, 40 years of life lived, that I can can feel that I am an established member of the community because I see the impact that is done by people like that.

Caleb: Mm-hmm. , [01:25:00] because I think, I think we've romanticized the dirt bag. No mad life. It's valuable. Bad now. It's great. It's cool. It's fun. I really wanna dig deep roots down and invest. Time, energy, money, life into a place to consistently be improving it. Mm-hmm. . And, and I think what's cool, and, and we've kind of mentioned this a couple times as we've been chatting, the time that we're in now, specifically in the climbing industry is really cool because we have, we are receiving the baton from the generation before us, the developers, the people who have kind of established what climbing looks like, especially here in the States.

Caleb: It's still pretty young by meta standards. Um, but we are receiving it from that previous generation and now we get to hold the, the baton and carry it this next leg. So what [01:26:00] are we gonna do with that? What are we going to, uh, Bring to the table. How are we going to steward this time that the climbing industry is in?

Caleb: Are we going to improve it? Are we gonna create sustainable infrastructure so that it's supported and survives this next season? Or are we just gonna take advantage of the resources that we have available to us and say, screw the next generation? I think that's a challenge. That's a, that's a challenge that I really often try to bring to, to new climbers.

Caleb: Yeah. Is say, Hey, yeah, this is super fun. Glad you're stoked. What are you doing to be involved? Cause I think we're well past the point of casual involvement in this sport. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's a unique journey for everyone. If you want to be a, a casual climber and just have it as part of your lifestyle, whatever.

Caleb: But if you're going to claim. Status as a climber, [01:27:00] you really need to think deeply and, and hard about what it means to be a, a good steward of our climbing resources. When is

Mario: that point, do you think, for most climbers? Like, when is that point? Because you can't, you know, if I just bought my first pair of shoes, you can't ask me that question.

Mario: That doesn't, no, absolutely

Caleb: not. That's not reality. You haven't developed love, you haven't developed the, but like, when

Mario: do you think that kind of is, is that like, when I'm taking my first outdoor trip? Is that when I want to join my first like, climbing coalition? Like just, uh, just for the listener base?

Mario: Like, like when is that? I'm a big fan of Leap Before you're ready. Mm-hmm. , I, you know, a friend of mine, Chelsea? Chelsea Mer, uh, Muren. Oh my God. Hold on, hold on. We're gonna, we're gonna get this correct and then I can just edit it out. My, my mistake here. Hold on.[01:28:00]

Mario: I have to know this now. Mein. Yeah.

Mario: A friend of mine, Chelsea Mein, um, said this, it's like, is something that we were talking, and she really mentioned this to me. She was like, something she learned is like, you have to run before the universe pushes you and jump before the universe shoves you. And, but there's a moment I think before that where we all know, or you begin to know, it's like, you know, it's like the tides kind of coming in, but it's not really coming in.

Mario: It's like, but it's like you working for the s e c. Like when do you see that? is for new climbers. When do you kind of see that moment happening? When should someone, you know, leap before they're

Caleb: ready? This is an interesting question and [01:29:00] just based on my very raw reaction to that question, I, I don't know that there's necessarily a specific time or a specific catalyst that I can think of cuz everyone's journey is different.

Caleb: But what I would respond to that question is that it's never too early to plant a seed. It's never too early to have a conversation with someone and say, Hey, you're getting into rock climbing, that's rad. What are you stoked? What do you love? Are you a boulder? Are you a sport climber? Are you a track climber?

Caleb: Start the conversation. Lead that into potentially planting a seed and saying, Hey, have you thought about this? , what, what are your feelings around stewardship? Did you know that access is not free? And finding ways to incorporate into the conversation of new climbers at any time, really. Mm-hmm. , it could be their first time in the gym.

Caleb: It could be their first time outside. Um, and planting that seed and treating it like that, [01:30:00] cultivating mentality of pl of gardening because you, you can't expect to, to harvest the fruit of, of a tomato seed initially. You have to wait. You have to let it grow. And that growth is dependent on a lot of factors.

Caleb: It's, it's dependent on access. So if someone gets to climb often enough, it's dependent on gear. If, if they have the, the socioeconomic status to support getting into the sport, um, It. Yeah. There's a lot of community having, uh, a stable and consistent community of people who will also do this crazy thing with you.

Caleb: Mm-hmm. . So there's a lot of factors there that contribute to someone being willing and able to engage with climbing sustainability at a meaningful level. But like I said, it's never too early to plant the seed of what hopefully will eventually grow [01:31:00] into deeply caring about a resource that has.

Caleb: Potentially impacted their life in a meaningful way. And I think for me, when I was first starting to climb, if someone had had that conversation with me in the first year that I started climbing, it would've meant nothing to me. It would've, yeah, just like gone. Gone over my head and I would've been like, Ooh, access is at at risk, whatever, dude, I'm just climbing at this Woody end, my college, and occasionally going outside to this like county park, I guess it's fine, whatever.

Caleb: But over the years of climbing and seeing the certain climbing areas close down and losing access to climbing areas and seeing those photos of boulders getting actively blown up, I started to learn and have context for this is a really meaningful thing to see. I don't want this to ever happen to me. I also don't want it to ever happen to future generations of [01:32:00] people.

Caleb: Mm-hmm. . So I'm gonna do what I can. As I'm able to, to influence that story. And when I was working for a climbing gym, it was, uh, inviting the s e c to come to events. It was, uh, being a guide and a teacher and taking people on their first climbing trip outside and teaching them the ethics. Very, very, like organically.

Caleb: I never was an official guide. I never had my, like, am mga a certification or whatever, but like, I would, don't worry about it. Yeah. , I have my opinions, the record on that. Um, we'll,

Mario: we'll get that's another episode. Yeah.

Caleb: I, but I, I took those opportunities to, to have conversations with people and say, Hey, like, maybe don't TRAs through the woods.

Caleb: Mm-hmm. off trail. Maybe don't poop right next to the trail or in that water. Maybe if your dog is sensitive to, uh, stimulus, maybe leave the home. Mm-hmm. , because I had, I was bitten by a [01:33:00] dog at the crag, like, That's a whole nother conversation. But I, I think Go ahead. Sorry. Sorry. Um, when it comes to climbing ethics and climbing stewardship, we have to recognize that everyone's journey is different.

Caleb: They're on different time stamps on that journey, so take the opportunity to have the conversation agreed. Just don't expect the result that you want immediately.

Mario: Agreed. Agreed. I think, I think that, yeah, no, that, that's actually a beautiful answer to it because I think that's like a one thing too. It's like, especially with people like us who have been it in for a while, it's.

Mario: I don't know. Sometimes I think it's easy to put the horse before, uh, the carriage before the horse, or however that phrase goes. Um, horses, carts, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks. Um, because you want people to care and you want them to be [01:34:00] involved. Yes. And what you want doesn't mean they're gonna drink the Kool-Aid.

Mario: So that, I will say this, you know, in this little conversation that we've been having, which has been a couple hours, which has been blowing by, I would say, you're well on your way to your goal. You're well on your way to planting roots, because that's what I've wanted to be here in Texas. Like at one point in time, I told myself, I was like, I want to be known as Mr.

Mario: Rock Climbing of Texas. Like, if you think of Texas rock climbing, you think of me. And people might wonder why that is. And it's, you know, it's not for fame, it's not for fortune, it's for influence. It's for legitimate influence. So I can once again protect. Preserve and keep these places that we like to go and make sure they're there.

Mario: I want the influence to be able to walk into counties and towns that have amazing access to rock climbing and have amazing things. And these like, you know, these towns like [01:35:00] Joe's Valley that are in Texas that are slowly dying because kids are moving and people aren't coming back, but they have access to, they probably have some of the world's greatest mountain biking and some of the world's greatest climbing and some of the world's greatest trail running, and they can have all these great events and all these things here.

Mario: Like that's the reason why I want this. And it involves me building roots. It involves me building community and you know, I, I, I see your vision and I see it cuz it's like much and one and the same. Like in a lot of ways we're kindred spirits in that way. Um, I do. We're, we're gonna have a future conversation.

Mario: This is just how it needs to roll. But you are shooting the ffc, uh, the I F S C World Cup tomorrow

Caleb: today. Youth Worlds. Yeah. Youth Worlds today. It is currently one o'clock I it is one 12. Today is, uh, the beginning of speed qualifiers. Yeah.

Mario: So thank God, uh, it will be, I have no [01:36:00] idea what that's gonna be for you, but I know what it's gonna be for me.

Mario: Um, cuz I'm gonna still be coaching kids and they're gonna be running around in a different gym today, but that's not important. What's important right now is how can people find you, support you get in touch with you. or if you want to remain on anonymous ghost, you're more, you're more than welcome to do that.

Mario: It's your life. You can live it the best way you want. But if people do want to get in touch with you, if they do want to support you, or they do want to get in touch with the s e C and support the s e c, how do they do that?

Caleb: Uh, we live in a digital age. Mm-hmm. , where we have access to information and content in a variety of ways.

Caleb: I would say the easiest and selfishly, the, the way that I will respond fastest is Instagram. Um, so my, this is everyone. Yeah. So my Instagram is Caleb Timmerman photo. Um, I don't have a personal Instagram. I'd only have my photography and [01:37:00] my, I also have a wedding photography page, and then I also have the s e C page.

Caleb: So the s e c is s e climbers is our Instagram. Okay. Um, So that's social media, but you can also find us, I have a website, caleb torman photo.com. Uh, our, the SCC website is se climbers.org. Um, yeah, I, I had a friend who told me long ago, uh, never doubt the power of a casual email, and I have taken that to heart and want to extend that invitation to others as well.

Caleb: Like if you have a question, if you have a thought, if you have a conversation that you want to have, reach out, talk, ask a question. And, and that's true for anyone because we mentioned this earlier in the climbing [01:38:00] industry stage that we're at now, there's a really solid chance that we are one, maybe two degrees of separation away from.

Caleb: Someone that we want to be connecting with and want to be learning from or want to be having a conversation with. So shamelessly reach out, be honest about what you want to, to chat about or what. Mm-hmm. you. Mm-hmm. . What you wanna share? I serendipitously ran into, um, , oh, no blanking on her name. Um, here in Dallas, here in Texas.

Caleb: Oh, not Brooke Rabbit. Two. Strong climber. She's really known for recovering from injuries. Oh.

Mario: Oh, that, that, that does not narrow it down.

Caleb: Oh, what's her name? Crap. I have to remember this. This is what you did earlier. Give me a concept.

Mario: Five, four. The athlete, [01:39:00] parent, adult coach, athlete. Ooh. .

Caleb: Um, really strong.

Caleb: That does not matter. That doesn't air down. That's what say like, we're literally at the World Cup. Yeah. Gosh. What is her name? Crap. Um,

Mario: I don't know. I wish I could help you there, but I'm haven't been at the event. Damn. What team usa?

Caleb: No, she's older. She's an older climber. Uh, probably around our age. Um, crap.

Mario: Local or from here? She's

Caleb: visiting family. I think she lives in Colorado. I mean

Mario: as old too. Yeah. But family lives here. Yep. Alex Puto. Alex Nailed it. Yeah, I was about to say, I was saying as soon as you said family here, I was like, you're talking about Alex? Yeah,

Caleb: yeah, yeah. Okay, so I'm gonna circle back. Um, had a very serendipitous conversation with Alex Puccio because she's here for Youth [01:40:00] Worlds and.

Caleb: I just saw her from across the way and I was like, oh my God, that's Alexio. And I, I had that moment where I was like, I could either just like not engage or I could approach and have a conversation with this person that I've looked up to for years and been inspired by. And so I just did that. I, I went up and I said, Hey Alex, I'm Caleb.

Caleb: And she's like, oh my God, it's so nice to meet you. She's just very kind, very approachable. And I told her, I was like, Hey, like I broke my leg nine months ago and honestly, you've been one of the most inspirational people as I've been recovering and healing because you have a tenacity in recovering and, and getting strong again.

Caleb: That is really inspirational to me. So I, I tell that story to say, I think it's really important for people to not be afraid of. reaching out. Mm-hmm. and taking an opportunity to, to [01:41:00] communicate, whether it's Instagram, whether it's phone call, whether it's an email. Just reach out to people who you're inspired by, whether that's me or you, Mario, or Alex Puccio or Jeremy Collins, or shoot Alex Collins goes on, shoot.

Caleb: Yeah. There's a lot of inspirational humans out there, and we get stronger as a community and as a collective when we engage actively with people that inspire us. I would

Mario: agree. Yeah, I would agree wholeheartedly. And I think it's one of those things like you never know. You never know. Oh, yeah. Like with my podcast too, people are always like, how do you get the guests that you do?

Mario: It's like, I just ask people. I'm like, some people like literally have been like, oh, I didn't realize you messaged me like a year ago. I'd love to be. I was. I'm like, sure, okay. I'm like, I'm like, when are you gonna be in Dallas? Or when are you gonna be here? Or, you know, or we'll do it remotely. But [01:42:00] I 100% agree with you.

Mario: It's like you have no idea. And most people will be accessible in some way, shape, or form. So that's it. Well, sir, you both have a day tomorrow. Um, I am happy that you, that we could, uh, share dinner, share mescal, and uh, create beautiful memories.

Caleb: This has been a delight. Thank you for having me. Um,

Mario: Ooh. We'll do it next time.

Mario: It's too late. . We'll, we'll, we'll, we'll ask these. Yeah. ? Yes. Yes. Uh, ladies and gentlemen, you guys are beautiful. Good night. Cheers. Or good morning.[01:43:00]

Mario: I do this all the time. Anyways, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Caleb. I cannot stop smiling from ear to ear and, um, yeah, it was a blessing. It was a homie, it was a friend, and I'm happy you got to be a, a fly on the wall in my journey in making friendships if you haven't already. Please, like, follow, subscribe to this podcast.

Mario: Leave a comment because if it touched you as much as it touched me and tickled me, I think it's worth saying. And we're on Patreon. We share more stories like this and things that we're doing there. So, uh, yeah, catch us out. But I hope you enjoyed it. And remember, if you're not suffering, are you even sending it all?